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Post by jon on May 3, 2011 18:20:00 GMT -8
I think it's a fair question and I'd love to hear answers.
A recent poll showed that believers not only don't trust non-believers, they don't like them.
I am fine stating publicly that I am an atheist and as far as I can see I'm the only one here who feels that way.
Why might you dislike or distrust atheists?
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Post by hatboromike on May 4, 2011 6:17:31 GMT -8
I could not care less what others believe or not believe. I only find them annoying when they portend to know more than the rest of us.
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Post by msguide on May 4, 2011 9:43:02 GMT -8
I don't believe I was questioned in that poll. Thanks for making assumptions and judging my opinion when you don't even know it.
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Post by dctim on May 5, 2011 10:59:35 GMT -8
The first question I have - what, exactly, are you atheist about?
Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Shinto, Sikhism, Bahai, Wicca, Rastafari, Unitarianism
Everyone has a "god" of some kind, even "no god" is a believe system.
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Post by msguide on May 5, 2011 14:26:59 GMT -8
And why the hostility toward people of faith? I don't seem to recall your atheism being under attack here.
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Post by jon on May 5, 2011 20:42:19 GMT -8
I only find them annoying when they portend to know more than the rest of us. Golly, I'd think you'd have to admit the same is true for believers. |
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Post by jon on May 5, 2011 21:25:47 GMT -8
The first question I have - what, exactly, are you atheist about? Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Shinto, Sikhism, Bahai, Wicca, Rastafari, Unitarianism Everyone has a "god" of some kind, even "no god" is a believe system. I do not believe no god (gods) exist, I simply have no proof. I have an absence of belief that any deities exist, I have no god. A belief system is simply how one understands/processes what they know (or perceive); that does not necessarily define what or who they use as a deity (if any). |
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Post by dctim on May 6, 2011 7:34:27 GMT -8
I can believe that Lindsay Lohan is inherently clueless. That belief system can define who I am -- perhaps it does in some small way.
I can believe that the US tax code is also inherently clueless. If this belief is stronger than the one I hold about Lindsay, it will define more of who I am and more frequently.
I can believe in "god" and also believe that those who deny _my_ "god" are (1) lost, (2) uneducated, (3) misled, (4) infidels or (5) clueless or any number of other categories.
I can believe that those who define "god" similarly to the way that I do are (1) righteous, (2) elect, (3) preferred, (4) blessed or (5) clueless.
I could also believe things about those who define "god" differently than I do.
In all honesty - none of this has anything to do with what I believe about you, jon. Or what you believe about yourself and how you "perceive" what I am thinking about your belief system.
I'm not bothered that you are an atheist. It actually makes sense that you are. It seems very consistant with your political points of view.
I'm not gonna thump you over the head with the Bible or Koran. Should a "god" exist, I believe we will both find out eventually.
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Post by jon on May 6, 2011 8:57:05 GMT -8
I can believe in "god" and also believe that those who deny _my_ "god" are (1) lost, (2) uneducated, (3) misled, (4) infidels or (5) clueless or any number of other categories. I can believe that those who define "god" similarly to the way that I do are (1) righteous, (2) elect, (3) preferred, (4) blessed or (5) clueless. I could also believe things about those who define "god" differently than I do. Ok, thanks, this is what I was looking for. how does someone who has no god, yet does not deny anyone else's god fit in? does not subscribing to your god count as denying your god? Does it become denying if a non-believer questions a believer (ie what they believe, how they arrived at their beliefs etc)? Suppose a flaw in the logic of the believer is found and has that flaw pointed out-would you want to have that error pointed out? What if their misuse of their incorrect assumption directly affects me-may I then point it out? What if all their life, someone believed 2+2=5, by pointing out 2+2=4, am I attacking them or showing them a mistake? Shouldn't they thank me for correcting them? I'm not gonna thump you over the head with the Bible or Koran. Should a "god" exist, I believe we will both find out eventually. we can discuss Pascal's Wager another time. |
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Post by dctim on May 6, 2011 10:30:32 GMT -8
1. how does someone who has no god, yet does not deny anyone else's god fit in?
From what I have seen, most atheists fall into this camp. They can not "prove" god, so they don't believe. They also can not "disprove" someone else belief, so they are not fitting into any clear category.
2. does not subscribing to your god count as denying your god?
In most cases, I would say yes. Christianity teaches that those who have heard the "gospel" are responsible for their response. I don't know about what others might teach, but at least in Christianity, there is always room for grace and acceptance of those who are not doing it perfectly.
3. Does it become denying if a non-believer questions a believer (ie what they believe, how they arrived at their beliefs etc)?
Never. Believers better question their faith, otherwise, what use is it? I am no theologian, but I welcome the questions that others toss my way. It is my impression that the vast majority of whaterver faith shy away from answering tough questions.
4. Suppose a flaw in the logic of the believer is found and has that flaw pointed out-would you want to have that error pointed out?
Flaws will be made. Heck, you might even assume that they will be made. However, logic is not the only card deck on the table. "Faith is the assurance of things unseen" -- logic does not explain everything -- it helps, but it does not get all the way to faith.
5. What if their misuse of their incorrect assumption directly affects me-may I then point it out?
This sounds like a case-by-case basis to me. Some of us who have known you online won't be offended one little bit. Others could get pretty ticked and might knee-jerk back at you.
I have seen that how people respond to those with questions a major problem to those who are questing. Its easy to do. Flip off somebody in traffic and suddenly people think I am some "hypocritical Christian". Actually, I'm just a guy and sometimes I react poorly. Same goes for whoever you are interacting with.
6. What if all their life, someone believed 2+2=5, by pointing out 2+2=4, am I attacking them or showing them a mistake?
Shouldn't they thank me for correcting them?
So you would like:
"jon - thanks so much for being an atheist. Because you said so, I will now abandon everything I have ever believed about everything and become an athiest, too".
I don't think folks will be tripping over themselves to thank you for pointing out their "logic" reasoning. Faith is more than that.
Back to Pascal -- "In faith there is enough light for those who want to believe and enough shadows to blind those who don't."
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Post by jon on May 6, 2011 17:38:01 GMT -8
1. how does someone who has no god, yet does not deny anyone else's god fit in? From what I have seen, most atheists fall into this camp. They can not "prove" god, so they don't believe. They also can not "disprove" someone else belief, so they are not fitting into any clear category. 2. does not subscribing to your god count as denying your god? In most cases, I would say yes. Christianity teaches that those who have heard the "gospel" are responsible for their response. I don't know about what others might teach, but at least in Christianity, there is always room for grace and acceptance of those who are not doing it perfectly. 3. Does it become denying if a non-believer questions a believer (ie what they believe, how they arrived at their beliefs etc)? Never. Believers better question their faith, otherwise, what use is it? I am no theologian, but I welcome the questions that others toss my way. It is my impression that the vast majority of whaterver faith shy away from answering tough questions. 4. Suppose a flaw in the logic of the believer is found and has that flaw pointed out-would you want to have that error pointed out? Flaws will be made. Heck, you might even assume that they will be made. However, logic is not the only card deck on the table. "Faith is the assurance of things unseen" -- logic does not explain everything -- it helps, but it does not get all the way to faith. 5. What if their misuse of their incorrect assumption directly affects me-may I then point it out? This sounds like a case-by-case basis to me. Some of us who have known you online won't be offended one little bit. Others could get pretty ticked and might knee-jerk back at you. I have seen that how people respond to those with questions a major problem to those who are questing. Its easy to do. Flip off somebody in traffic and suddenly people think I am some "hypocritical Christian". Actually, I'm just a guy and sometimes I react poorly. Same goes for whoever you are interacting with. 6. What if all their life, someone believed 2+2=5, by pointing out 2+2=4, am I attacking them or showing them a mistake? Shouldn't they thank me for correcting them? So you would like: "jon - thanks so much for being an atheist. Because you said so, I will now abandon everything I have ever believed about everything and become an athiest, too". I don't think folks will be tripping over themselves to thank you for pointing out their "logic" reasoning. Faith is more than that. Thank you for your thoughtful answers Tim, I've been trying to process them for several hours now, I'm mostly clear; I guess the 'leap of faith' is where I get lost. I just can't take that jump Back to Pascal -- "In faith there is enough light for those who want to believe and enough shadows to blind those who don't." Pascal was quite rah rah for the believer team, he's dead now so I can't argue that one with him, but that's the typical knock on those without a deity all their own, calling someone 'blind' in a theological discussion is something along the lines of 'you don't get it'. The first question I have - what, exactly, are you atheist about? Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Shinto, Sikhism, Bahai, Wicca, Rastafari, Unitarianism Everyone has a "god" of some kind, even "no god" is a believe system. this was from a previous response, and I wanted to revisit it. what is my belief system when I have no proof of anything? I feel that the assignment of the label 'belief' by believers to a lack of belief is just trying to bring those without to the same level. When I say I have no proof of anything, I am not saying 'no god', I'm saying given the lack of proof, I'm going to go with the most direct solution...if you were to ask me the direct question, 'is there a god?', I'd ask you if you mean your god or any god(s)...either response to that would be, "I can't say for sure, but not very likely" Assuming there is a god(s), how do you know you are with the correct (ones)? |
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Post by hatboromike on May 6, 2011 20:05:20 GMT -8
I only find them annoying when they portend to know more than the rest of us. Golly, I'd think you'd have to admit the same is true for believers. some, of course ... just like some atheists |
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Post by msguide on May 6, 2011 21:04:52 GMT -8
Thank you for your thoughtful answers Tim, I've been trying to process them for several hours now, I'm mostly clear; Tim did a good job so I won't add to what he said. I guess the 'leap of faith' is where I get lost. I just can't take that jump. Maybe you could try one step at a time. That's what I do. |
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Post by dctim on May 9, 2011 5:29:51 GMT -8
1. what is my belief system when I have no proof of anything?
Do you believe you will get your next paycheck when you have no current proof that it will actually be direct deposited?
If you don't get it, does it mean you never will or that you will forever go without your just compensation?
Faith works in a similar vein. For a Christian, it works in reverse. We respond to the down payment already made and the continuing deposits into our accounts.
My view is that everyone has recieved a lump sum distribution. Some haven't checked their account balances lately. Those who are paying attention, check their statements and try to grow their assets.
2. I feel that the assignment of the label 'belief' by believers to a lack of belief is just trying to bring those without to the same level.
Well, sure it is. If someone did not understand my banking analogy above and was interested and motivated enough, there are ways of learning that could not only be personally beneficial, but beneficial to family, community and world.
3. When I say I have no proof of anything, I am not saying 'no god', I'm saying given the lack of proof, I'm going to go with the most direct solution...if you were to ask me the direct question, 'is there a god?', I'd ask you if you mean your god or any god(s)...either response to that would be, "I can't say for sure, but not very likely"
Proof. Yes, by your typing, aliens would have to land on the White House lawn to believe in UFOs. We haven't physically seen the UFO there yet, but we can mathmatically agree that there is a chance greater than Zero that one day they will be.
For a person of faith, the chance is much greater than the Zero where you find yourself, jon.
4. Assuming there is a god(s), how do you know you are with the correct (ones)?
Faith. That's the difference. My faith recommends Love, Serve, Forgive, Welcome Others. The key word is "recommend". Christianity recognizes human choice, even if it is contrary to Biblical and church teaching.
I don't have to keep the Ten Commandments, or the hundreds of Kosher laws that follow. My God is both grace and just. If I blow it, He gives me multiple chances. I understand that those chances do have an end point. Could be today.
I choose to follow what I understand today about my faith. Practice can make more perfect.
Faith is not about me. It's not about what I can further gain -- because I have that nice bank account that the CEO setup for me 2,000 years ago. Faith grows, with compounding interest, compared to how I invest in my relationship with god and others.
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Post by Douglass on May 26, 2011 17:54:22 GMT -8
The first question I have - what, exactly, are you atheist about? Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism, Shinto, Sikhism, Bahai, Wicca, Rastafari, Unitarianism Everyone has a "god" of some kind, even "no god" is a believe system. I do not believe no god (gods) exist, I simply have no proof. I have an absence of belief that any deities exist, I have no god. A belief system is simply how one understands/processes what they know (or perceive); that does not necessarily define what or who they use as a deity (if any). There is plenty of proof you have to be the one to realize what it is. |
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